Talk:Yassan
Yassan's last anime appearance Regarding Yassan's last meeting with Hidenori in the anime, it is clearly shown that they've both graduated. The entire graduation sequence and the events thereafter are part of Tadakuni's dream. It seems strange otherwise, because the characters are given an apparent send-off, only for the last part to somehow be seen as a dream and be used to jump back to the present timeline (where they're still going to school). There is no concrete source offering any interpretation of this scene, so I'm sticking with this, as it seems reasonable. RianL110 (talk) 01:53, November 14, 2018 (UTC) I understand where you're coming from but, there are flaws in this argument. Let me give a list of pointers from the last episode that would outweigh against this: #Isn't it much weirder for a single person to dream other's personal lives? #Yoshitake digs his old stuff that has been buried 10 years under the ground. #Mitsuo receiving a gift hidden under his desk. #In the above 2 scenes, Tadakuni is clearly not here. It'll be much weirder for him to dream of these without him in the scene, wouldn't it? #Two more other personal events, including the ones about Yassan and Hidenori, where Tadakuni is clearly not involve. #Try re-watching Episode 1 and Episode 12; the former is the first time Hidenori and Yassan exchanged the same exact lines in the latter. In both episodes, Tadakuni wasn't there. #In Episode 1, sub-episode「High School Boys and Literary Girl」, Tadakuni came in late in the scene, but he wasn't there as Hidenori's rescue (from his awkward moment); rather, Tadakuni was there to complain about something. #With point 7 above, it's clearly shown that Tadakuni doesn't even know or care about what's happening. #At what point does the dream start? If it were really a dream, the dream should start all the way back to the beginning of the sub-episode title「High School Boys and ...」, since this is when it's said that Tadakuni is going to Tokyo after graduation. #With point 9 above, the last scene where Tadakuni meets Nago (as much slimmer than before), also depicted that since Tadakuni is going to Tokyo, she (Nago) might as well just confess. #This unlikely view about “Yassan's last meeting with Hidenori” being just a dream was only recently added at 03:46, March 31, 2018‎ by Kingdevo215, and I can conclude that this was due to a misunderstanding. #Similarly, in Hidenori's page, the same idea as point 11 above, was only added recently as well, with edits at 18:01, January 24, 2018‎ by an anonymous contributor 201.163.26.253. Here's a list of points as to why people might misunderstood of these being all just a dream: #The next sub-episode is another episode about them apparently going to school again. #''Actually there isn't a point 2 nor 3.'' Now that next sub-episode (where they're going to school again) even appeared after the ending credits. People should understand that all these are disconnected mini-stories that should not be interpreted as a continuation. The graduation scene is a very weird exception that a lot of events happened in just one scene of the episode. It's the longest scene (sub-episode) so far in the Anime. Also, the last mini-story (where they're apparently going to school again) can be argued as the beginning of a promotion for the「Danshi Koukousei no Nichijou」merchandise, like manga and other stuffs. It's even said that their “everyday idiotic life” still continues, before concluding “Our journey has just begun!” then hits with a big pause and a sign that reads END. Another supporting factor that this was indeed a graduation scene is that the last sub-episode after the END is another mini-story about graduation, but this time for the girls. Though, it's another disconnected story. Now, I am not here to edit or remove this part (about “Yassan's last meeting with Hidenori” being just a dream) like everyone else (at least not yet). Since, it's very likely to get undo’ed again anyway, like everyone's edits. I just wanted to give some context and clarifications, and let others decide. Lastly, a list of closing pointers: #What is not clear is not clear. #What is left unclear should be left unclear, and not be resolved by personal conclusions. #Holes should not even be filled, to avoid concluding what is not concluded. #If holes were to be filled, it should be made apparent that the filling information is just an opinion, not a fact. At the time of writing, “Yassan's last meeting with Hidenori” being just a dream is written and regarded as if it were a truth. Which isn't right in my opinion, and is something I hate myself about edits in Wikipedia where feelings matter more than keen observations and critical reasonings. If feelings where to be regarded as truths, then knowledge and understanding as we know it is misled, and logic doesn't have to make sense. Please, if the line about “Yassan's last meeting with Hidenori” being just a dream was to be removed, this talk should still be kept, for future references. GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 19:53, November 16, 2018 (UTC) :I also noticed that there are other wiki pages that are being linked to Tadakuni's dream. It would be a pleasure to track them down myself, and edit them one by one, gradually. : :GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 21:28, November 16, 2018 (UTC) : :Just edited the above and added point 12 ''as one of the supporting arguments against this view. : :GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 21:52, November 16, 2018 (UTC) : :'Update:' I found out that the needed edits for the potential removal of this ''personal view regarding the graduation scene just being a dream only applies to Yassan's and Hidenori's wiki pages. Which means we only have 2 pages to edit. Also, ...might as well add a talk topic in Hidenori's page as well, regarding such removals. : :GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 22:02, November 16, 2018 (UTC) Okay, I agree with what you've said for the most part. I'm all for changing it to 'it is unclear whether this meeting was also part of Tadakuni's dream' or something along those lines. In this case, there really is no evidence that Tadakuni knew about any of the 'personal' details that you mentioned, although there isn't any evidence that he didn't know, either (being friends, one might expect them to share these details, especially since Yoshitake and Tadakuni were part of the 'rescue squad'). In my view, the article should convey the notion of this uncertainty to the reader. (A minor aside: In point 7 of your 12 points, you argue that Tadakuni only showed up to complain about something. This is untrue, since Hidenori understands it to be Tadakuni's method of disrupting the fairytale atmosphere soon after Yassan hits him. It's mentioned fairly clearly in the episode.) Feel free to add the necessary talk topic to Hidenori's page as well, and do let me know what you think of my suggestion for the entry on Yassan's page. RianL110 (talk) 07:11, November 17, 2018 (UTC) I agree, I just realized that I made a mistake at point 7 (of the 12 points) above. I stand corrected. Anyway, in this talk, the fact that there really isn't a strong evidence for this part to be removed is also nullified by the fact that there really isn't a strong evidence for this part to be added here in the first place. Your last note above had proven my point. This reminded me of a popular fan theory way back then that, Episode 4 'til Episode 12 are just part of Tadakuni's dream. : Tadakuni woke up with the same uniform and manga book from episode 4. The whole story since then are from Tadakuni's dreams. This also explains why he did not appeared much in the remaining episodes. Maybe Ringo doesn't even exist. An interesting theory – except he appeared in his own dream with his own cutscene montage, there at the end… Staring at a peaceful scenery of an overview of the town, suggesting even further that this was an independent event sequence. For this to be even plausible, I'd say Tadakuni is in coma. Of course, we knew back then that this was only an interesting fan theory. That maybe somehow, there would still be a season 2. But, there isn't. This theory came from the fans, not the authors. And now, it's making its way back through the wikia, in great danger of being immortalized. GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 13:00, November 17, 2018 (UTC) : Here's a side note: If ‘''logical reasoning''’ is what is being used to explain that the graduation scene is ‘''potentially just a dream''’ and that ‘''logical reasoning''’ is “''off-screen past inputs from Tadakuni's friends and acquantances'',” then I have a much heavier reasoning that is non-speculative and more scientific: : . :During the graduation sub-episode, various texts are flashed on the screen. Not only that, a cut scene is shown of their class board as it is steadily being panned around just enough for the viewer to read quickly – with various greetings, messages, and hand writings by the students. Now the main problem is, you can't read in dreams. And, that is a known cognitive fact, at least among my peers. Knowing that this was a collaboration work between Square Enix and Sunrise, I would say that this should also be a common knowledge among them, since a knowledge in Cognitive Science is a great asset (and for some rarer studios, a “must”) as a game designer/director. : . : GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 17:40, November 17, 2018 (UTC) : . : To add to that, don't forget that what Yoshitake dug from the ground has a message that he read. And not only that, it's the type of message that is far too personal, something he most likely won't tell anyone (i.e., Why bury it underground if you'll tell it to others?). It's something kind'a embarrassing because it's too childish and fantastical, but also something very special to Yoshitake for him to even hide it. : GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 20:13, November 17, 2018 (UTC) Now, I think we're clear on why this entire graduation scene can't be a dream for certain. But if you still doubt, here's a list of questions that I might be able to shed some clarity for everyone: #If this wasn't a dream, then why is Tadakuni wearing a school uniform when he woke up? #If this wasn't entirely a dream, when does the dream actually start? Now I'm not just here again to defend my argument, but to also remove this uncertainness. Since I think I can make things certain. By debunking this dream theory, once and for all, fatally. In fact, I was never confused at all on whether the graduation scene actually happened or not when I first watched the last episode. Here's why... For the first question, the answer is this: Tadakuni just got home after graduating, and then he decided to doze off. Only for him to actually fall asleep and dream. You could see clearly that this wasn't morning, sunrises are not as long as sunsets. And the light emanating from the surroundings is definitely not light from a rising sun. It's almost dark. When it's sunrise, the surroundings illuminate, and immediately, the sky becomes blue. Because of that, the grass would look greener due to the bluish tint. Illumination happens fast due to the atmosphere's capability of spreading light rays quickly. But, sunsets are much longer, due to the fact that there is still light even if it's now getting dark, and our atmosphere is very good at dispersing light rays fast. When it's sunset, the skies also turn orangey, something that doesn't always happen during sunrise. Because, in a sunrise, the surroundings might have a slight yellowish tint, but the sky isn't, and that is why the grass becomes a bit greenish fast. Tadakuni doesn't seem to be he's about to go to school. Because, why read a manga book before going to school? Why were you in school uniform just for you to read a manga book and then doze off and sleep? It's very likely that he woke up after taking a nap, after going home from school, or should I say after the graduation ceremony. There's a sound of a horn (or flute) in the background, a few seconds after he woke up, but I still don't think this was some kind of wake up mechanism (i.e., it's not a morning call). It's more like the neighbor's noise. The reason is that, before that, just after Tadakuni wakes up, you could also hear crickets in the background. Crickets are nocturnal creatures, btw. Lastly, traces of his friends are clearly nowhere to be found. Further strengthening the fact that at this point, they have already parted ways. Tadakuni wouldn't have a good nap (for him to even doze off and dream) if his friends were just recently there. Now, for the second question. In order to determine when the dream actually started, we must observe carefully for context cues. After the scene about Hidenori, a shift in atmosphere is apparent. Continuity had just been broken. It's now Tadakuni's turn, as he stares above the town that he's about to leave. You could hear clearly the music changed: it's now softer; almost silent; before being raised up again much later. The pause before the actual scene is also much longer than before, to further cement that this is a new scene. That is proper cinematography way up there. The directors clearly know what they're up to, and they don't plan to confuse anyone – unless the subtitles confuse people. In that case, I would say that people are probably watching this on crunchyroll now a days. You could see clearly that there is no good reason for Tadakuni's dream to extend beyond his actual scene. One could even argue that his sister greeting him can be an actual event, though I doubt it since there's no clear cut and scene transition. With that said, I think we could easily deduce as to when the dream sequence actually started. Whether confusions arises more often, or not, I still don't think the authors deliberately intend them, due to the reasons I outlined above, with proper execution of scene transitions too subtle to notice for the unobservant. Let me know if there's still stuff that aren't clear. If we continue this, you might as well convince me, which is good IMHO. However, so far I have not been convinced, and I find my lists of evidences more reasonable and concrete than an unlikely dream theory that presents way more uncertainty (than conclusions), that people fall into easily but not myself. Not only that, it's grounds has already been shaken, and shouldn't even be here in the first place. Because this is not a fan theory site. Just look at the amount of evidences that prevents it from existing here. I said earlier that it's existence has been nullified, but now, I hope people see that it's more like below null, below zero, a negative. You said that there's no clear evidences, but all I see is that they aren't strong enough to convince the layman, or at least you can't convince the deceived (i.e., deceived by an internet troll, even though that troll had long ceased existence). I could even liken this dream theory to a bootstrap paradox. It just popped out of nowhere, and now people can't remove it in fear that it might be true. GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 23:42, November 17, 2018 (UTC) : As a summary, there is no evidence for this dream theory to exist, but there are many evidences against it if it were to exist. This part is more like adding lore bits (that aren't even there) due to misunderstanding. If there's no reason for it to exist, then why add it? Why put it in danger of being immortalized? Again, this isn't a fan theory site. Concreteness is more important. : : GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 11:01, November 18, 2018 (UTC) Alright. I do feel this is a bit of an over-analysis (especially the whole 'knowledge of cognitive science' part; that's too much of a stretch for me to want to discuss it), but you can remove the line about the dream. I am planning to devote a page to "High School Boys and..." anyway, so when that happens, this discussion can be reworked to fit there (since the casual reader isn't going to go through talk pages). RianL110 (talk) 02:14, November 19, 2018 (UTC) : Okay then, actually I had something similar in mind before, that I was planning to tell you only after I've finally convinced you... a dedicated page for Tadakuni's Dream, explaining in there the various subtleties and nuances I discussed here. Of course, I won't go far explaining the cognitive-part if I don't have to (or even the sunrise/sunset-part), unless people want it, haha, then I might have to simplify them to fit in an article. : . : Anyway, I'll be waiting for that new page instead, and probably contribute to that new page afterwards. I actually kind'a enjoyed this talk, btw. : . : I'm not sure if I was able to convince you, but once that new page comes in, I'm thinking of replacing that dream-part with whatever is appropriate, linking to a section of that new page instead. Let's say I was able to convince you, I was planning of replacing it with something like this line instead: :: “Some might have misunderstood this event as part of Tadakuni's dream; However, this is not the case. See, '''Tadakuni's Dream'.”'' : : …and that should clear up future misunderstandings as well. Any further prospective discussions would then be discussed as a talk for that page instead. : . : We're good then right? :) : . : Peace! ✌ : GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 11:55, November 19, 2018 (UTC) : . : …and thank you for you're time! Especially for maintaining this now dead wikia! :) : Really appreciated it! : GhostTrickSkeli (talk) 12:01, November 19, 2018 (UTC)